To Oldbear

Oldbear wrote about the Bible: In Alex Malarkey’s words: “They should read the Bible, which is enough. The Bible is the only source of truth.”

I wrote back: No, Oldbear, I have studied the Bible better than you apparently. It is an inconsistent bunch of tales. It took 400 years to fine tune the Christian message….by guys calling anybody who disagreed as having demons. Marcion for example said that there were actually two Gods, one of the old testament….vengeful, jealous, wrathful, etc,…and one of the New Testament….kind, loving, forgiving. He was the first to recommend a canon of books. Hmm, that’s funny for the book of God….interesting how men determined its contents. He only wanted one gospel, and loved anything Paul wrote. But the guy declared a heretic by the men in power, don’t even mention women. Later the wonderful foul-mouthed Luther said revelation and James should be taken out./…hmm, how could this be with the word of God.

No Oldbear, I’ll admit the Bible has some good stuff, but it also has dubious stuff. To quote Malarkey’s words…”They should read the Bible, which is enough. The Bible is the only source of truth.” is just that, a lot of malarkey.

Oldbear wrote back: I read the Bible, and believed. You read it, and denied. That is the essential difference, INB. 

I answered: Yes, but Oldbear, how do you reconcile God telling Moses to kill everybody in cites….babies, old men, pregnant women… and only spare the maiden for themselves? Sounds like a mean thing to do….since everybody on earth were God’s children anyway. Phew, he mad if you don’t worship HIM. HE later told Joshua to kill everything that breathed….sounds like genocide to me, old friend. Don’t tell me a wise man like you can merely overlook this stuff. If so, please let me know, I have hundreds of more examples…..maybe a thousand, just too many to count. I’ll send them to you to look at and try to justify.

When are you going to say the word of God is man-made….that is the question for me. To defend this stuff is just not tenable for an adult. Yes, be good, but admit it’s just because that is just you, not due to Jesus…an invented character that true serves as a good model, but God, never. Why would God or anybody accept his own son be crucified? What good does that do?

Don’t answer these questions here, just think about them. I have had your doctrinal answers before, and they don’t add up to a thinker like me. Maybe it’s a demon in me?

The wonderful David of the bible

But David a man that God favored. Why would such a great guy do this to Uriah….even if a Hittite. What the hell difference would that make anyway….right is right.

Here are some nice Godlike actions of wonderful David….as depicted by the wonderful word of God: (and you guys say this book not invented by man)

He kills Goliath with his sling, beheads him, and carries the head back to Jerusalem. 1 Sam.17:51-57
He and Saul have a contest to see who can kill the most people for God, and the women act as cheerleaders saying, “Saul has killed his thousands, and David his tens of thousands.” 1 Sam.18:6-7
He kills 200 Philistines and brings their foreskins to Saul to buy his first wife (Saul’s daughter Michal). 1 Sam.18:25-27
He acts like he’s crazy, scribbles on the gates of Gath, and lets spit run down his beard. All this he did in front of Israel’s enemies in the hopes that they would take him in and protect him from Saul. 1 Sam.21:12
He “inquired of the Lord, saying, Shall I go and smite these Philistines? And the Lord said unto David, Go, and smite the Philistines … So David smote them with a great slaughter.” 1 Sam.23:2-5
He vows to kill “any that pisseth against the wall.” 1 Sam.25:22, 34
He “smote the land and left neither man nor woman alive.” 1 Sam.27:8-11
He had many (like Joseph Smith, no one knows how many) wives. 1 Sam.30:5
He tells one of his “young men” to kill the Amalekite messenger who claimed to have mercifully killed Saul at Saul’s own request. 2 Sam.1:15
When Joab (David’s captain) kills Abner, David says that he and his kingdom are not responsible. The blame, he says, lays with Joab. So David curses Joab, his family, and their descendants forever. Let them all be plagued with venereal diseases and leprosy, starve to death, commit suicide, or lean on staves. 2 Sam.3:27-29
Some of David’s men kill Saul’s son and bring his head to David, thinking that he’ll be pleased. But he wasn’t. David has the assassins killed, their hands and feet chopped off, and their bodies hung up (for decorations?) over the pool in Hebron. 2 Sam.4:6-7
He says that whoever kills the lame and the blind will be his “chief and captain.” 2 Sam.5:8
He asks God if he should kill some more Philistines. God says yes, and he’ll even help. So David and God “smote the Philistines” again. 2 Sam.5:19, 25
He dances nearly naked in front of God and everybody. Michal criticizes him for it and Godpunishes her by having “no child unto the day of her death.” 2 Sam.6:14, 20-22
He kills two thirds of the Moabites and makes the rest slaves. He also cripples the captured horses. 2 Sam.8:2-4
He kills and tortures thousands of people, “and the Lord preserved David withersoever he went.” 2 Sam.8:6, 14
He sees a woman (Bathsheba) bathing and likes what he sees. so he sends for her and commits adultery with her “for she was purified from her uncleanness.” She conceives and bears a son (which God later kills to punish David). 2 Sam.11:2-5
He tells Joab (his captain) to send Bathseba’s husband (Uriah) to “the forefront of the hottest battle … that he may be smitten and die.” In this way, David gets another wife. 2 Sam.11:15, 17, 27 (This is the only thing he ever did wrong. Everything else was “right in the eyes of the Lord.”)
He tortured or enslaved (depending on translation) the inhabitants of several cities. 2 Sam.12:31, 1 Chr.20:1-3
He shows unusual restraint and “went not in unto his concubines.” Instead, he imprisons them as a punishment for being raped by David’s son, Absalom. 2 Sam.20:3
To appease God and end the famine that was caused by his predecessor (Saul), David agrees to have seven of Saul’s sons killed and hung up “unto the Lord.” 2 Sam.21:6-9
Old King David tries to get some heat by having a beautiful virgin minister unto him. 1 Kg.1:1-4
In David’s last words, he commands his son Solomon to murder Joab. 1 Kg.2:5-9

Stuff to X:

Yes, X, I think Jesus a historical figure who like his cousin John preached a apocalyptic message….that is, the world going to end with him coming back before his disciples had died. People needed hope due to oppression of the Romans, so his message resonated. His message was pacifist basically, and thus very enduring. Then he died the death of a criminal, and people needed to reconcile this. They invented this story he was God….which by the way was not unusual in those days…in fact Caesar declared a God too.

In short, Jesus probably presented the greatest message in history, but he not God…..to me anyway, just a great model for coping with a hostile world.

This from X:

But Jesus Christ Himself claimed to be God. How do you reconcile the Bible claiming Him to be God in writings that were written hundreds of years before His birth, plus ones written by the eyewitnesses who knew Him and saw His Miracles?

This from me: X, can’t believe anything proclaimed in the Bible. It has a theme to be fulfilled. Same with Book of Mormon, Koran, or DiVinci Code.

I used to have the need to believe in it when I worried about an afterlife, but not now. I’m going to return to dirt like everybody else….and as I have said before, who would want to spend an eternity praising God continually anyway….just too damned boring, especially without my wife and kids….there’s no marriage there, you know.

Religion thoughts

Yes, X, I think Jesus a historical figure who like his cousin John preached a apocalyptic message….that is, the world going to end with him coming back before his disciples had died. People needed hope due to oppression of the Romans, so his message resonated. His message was pacifist basically, and thus very enduring. Then he died the death of a criminal, and people needed to reconcile this. They invented this story he was God….which by the way was not unusual in those days…in fact Caesar declared a God too.

In short, Jesus probably presented the greatest message in history, but he not God…..to me anyway, just a great model for coping with a hostile world.

Thoughts to Connie

Thanks, Connie, this the old God is nature theme…God the good guy. Yet what about the babies aborted, or the people who die in tsunamis, or the Holocaust? This the devil right? Well why is God allowing him to reign? This all seems like a game….like the theory of all this happening we heard about in Brockport. Why have Jesus die a miserable death when he could have just forgiven everyone. All this because some uneducated creature ate a fruit in the Garden…the old original sin concept that has everybody following the church orders. You need forgiveness. For what….for something somebody else did thousands of years ago. But it put a sin nature into you, right? Well what are the terrible sins you commit to be sent to hell forever to burn? you a nice person who needs nothing to be so. It’s just you.
What’s with Jesus saying he was coming back before his disciples died, or that women can’t speak in church, etc. I don’t want to lists hundreds or inconsistencies, lies, myths, immoral acts, etc depicted in your “Word of God”. Have you read a single page extra in it since I have been trying to enlighten you? Of course you haven’t. NOTHING.   Just continue on!
I know it’s nice to think you going to heaven, but who wants to genuflect and praise God continually.
Look, Connie, I still feel the same about you as a person, but you have NOT read the Bible, except the normal stuff refereed to in sermons, and you as righteous as anybody I know. Therefore you judge people in terms of religion.
I am a deist because things don’t make sense otherwise. Do you just overlook the flood, creation in 6 days, the genocide, Samson, Jonah, the earth being 6000 years old and hundreds of things you just overlook. I especially dislike what parents do to kids, telling them that they going to hell if they don’t conform. That is after Santa doesn’t work anymore. This Bible stuff is just an extension of Santa type belief….but nobody there to tell people like they do with kids and Santa.
But thanks for trying, Connie, but your understanding of any of this is childlike. I know you think you helping me, but I don’t need fairy tales to be fine. I’m just not getting why you do.
We never talked or thought about any of this stuff years ago, and did fine? 
This idea of yours about “once saved, always saved” is an example of wishful thinking and a way to try to control others. Oh, believe like me and you “saved”. Did you know there are over 20,000 variants of Protestants, all and each having the answer? Only certain ones say, “Once saved, always saved”. BTW, do you think I am saved now….due to me using my brain.
But I’m still Pro-life, and as kind to anybody as you. Today we demonstrate on the overpass in front of Baylor. You do anything to save babies, Connie. Protestants say faith is what counts, not works like this. Hmm.
You the smartest woman I know, but have infantile beliefs.
But I would still drive through the night to help you. Why because I would have done such 40 years ago, and will forever….because that’s just me.
Isacc Newton Brown

Thoughts for the day

Depending on Jesus:

Why…. I never depend on him, and am fine. What about the millions before Jesus besides the Jews with their 613 laws, like not cutting your beard a certain way….or death?

You a great doctrinaire, Oldbear, but make no sense to anybody but a blind believer. The Bible doesn’t stand with you, old friend, but against you. You must be able to ignore almost anything….except somebody who doesn’t believe like you.

And Forest, you crazy as a bedbug to write thge stuff above, but you can hang around Oldbear all day….unless he turned out gay, then, boom, bye, bye.

Don’t you all see this crap is all like Santa Claus for adults?

Oldbear, Forest, myself, and anybody else in the world are good people just for the fact of being so. The religion part is pure BS.

Religion questions

What is Atonement: Theology: the doctrine concerning the reconciliation of God and humankind, especially as accomplished through the life, suffering, and death of Christ.

Thanks TK, but what does Jesus dying have to do with me and my puny, little bitty sins, and for my grandkids not yet born. What, because Adam took a bite from a fruit….after his wife urged him to. All this Hollywood script writing of suffering.

Why not God just snapping his fingers and forgiving everyone. And why have God himself sacrifice himself, he’s the one forgiving.

I’m not understanding this eternal suffering model.

More religious thougts and insights

What is with all this guilt about being a human? You have been indoctrinated into this original sin model….so the church can control your behavior, and thoughts….and donations of course. Tell me what you do so bad that you need to quiver with shame. Why let all this guilt govern your lives. Just do what you would want others to do to you. For example yesterday, I sucked up the leaves of my neighbor, plus I always bring in her garbage containers. This has NOTHING to do with Jesus or religion. I am always generous to my family and wife….just like my father was. I now see that society is governed by civil law, not religious….but the clergy (a “nice” profession) wants you to think so, and give them power over you. I know everyone has needs that are met by the group in the church….but it’s just that, group dynamics.

Okay, now the pious bunch will say I am lost. No folks, I am not unhappy or lost….you are for falling under the spell of religion. Depend on what is real, not a bunch of B.S. . I don’t have to list yet again all the crap from the book that is supposed to be so good….the Bible.

Problems do exist with being a freethinker….you can’t tell your friends, lest they say you have a demon. You also can lose your friends. There seems to be some kind of hold that religion has on people that they just don’t know exists outside of a God….similar to kids’ reference to the Easter bunny, or Santa. It gives them hope, and direction. from without. I used to be that way, but have shed it. I know that Ohio State has conducted a study that shows that people need religion for twelve reasons, but have read it yet.

Abortion comment

The Civil Law of the land protects individuals from the harm of others. Tell me, aborting preborns doesn’t hurt them. You people born should realize the answer immediately. This has nothing to do with religion, it’s just common sense….period. The reason you have an opinion is because your mother carried you.


Some statements summarising how I feel today

Donna wrote me satying her daughter felt like me about religion. I wrote back”

Yes, this probably the only thing I would agree with Jennifer on, but I still like her the same. I don’t dislike somebody who disagrees with me. But I want them to at least consider what I say.
Concerning the above question, apologists say God was not talking about 50,000 people, but instead multitudes of people. Nice, so what’s the difference. God still killed people for just looking inside this chest.
\
What I am trying to point out is just one of literally hundreds of inconsistencies in the “word of God”, a book hardly anybody knows, like me only 4 years ago. Yet a whole religion based on it….like the Book of Mormon for Mormons….another false man-made pile of crap.
I do believe in God, as I have told you, just not the one of the Bible, with Jesus dying to himself (God) instead of just forgiving everybody. What’s with all this drama of having to believe God killing himself (Jesus is God you know) to save us. For what?…to make this into a gripping drama, like in Hollywood?   What’s this having to make Jesus (God himself) suffer (Like 100’s of thousands of other men crucified) Tell me what Donna Cafora does that is so bad. Yet the church tells us we born with original sin, and and we need Jesus to die to get rid of it..All this made up by Paul AFTER Jesus died. Jesus said to go to the Jews, not gentiles. Then Paul changes all this….after a big dispute with the head of the church, Peter. Peter wanted all converts circumcised like the Jewish law stated (the Law which Jesus said he had come to fulfill, not change BTW), but Paul wanted followers, so he made it easy….OH, no circumcision now, folks, sigh up!!!! Of course, women never mentioned in this penis covenant….they didn’t count you know….another thing that doesn’t add up.
Well enough said. I think this will eventually sink in….maybe after yiou retire and havre time to think about it.
I don’t want you thinking there is no God to pray to. I feel thee is, but all this Jesus stuff is pure B.S., and justifies so much bad stuff in history now, and in the past. Remember the Muslims are driven by God too, and they justify everything using him.
John.