A question aboiut Jesus dying

What reasons support the notion that an all-powerful and perfectly loving being somehow lacks the power to simply forgive his beloved creations without killing an innocent person first?

Answer of a believer: 1) To show us what self sacrificing love even unto final obedience to death looks like.
 2) Now we know the full extent love, a friend willing to lay down his life for us. We did our worst to God – killed his Son – yet God loves us.
 3) That death the final enemy is overcome by God on Easter

My answer: Yes, you right…..why not just forgive….like I would have done my children. I think it’s because the people couldn’t understand why Jesus was killed like a common criminal….instead of a conquering messiah. He had promised that none of them would die before the kingdom of God had come, and when none of such come true, certain people rationalized all away. They searched the old scriptures for an answer and came up with a new type messiah….the suffering Messiah. Thus Jesus is supposed to have died to save us. From what I would like to know. Yes, why not just forgive us all for what Adam did….as a guy who had not yet learned from the tree of right and wrong….thousands (millions?) of years ago. Makes not a bit of sense to me. This all just a myth of ancients….but it makes people feel good.

But say this logical thing and people think you are a beast. They would rather believe the Bible stories of Noah, Joseph, the escape from Egypt, etc. ….just ridiculous stuff that shows you they have the minds of children. But they can personally attack you….so just keep your mouth shut, Mojo….unless you just don’t mind being called names….like me.

Another believer:While God is a loving God, God is also a righteous God who abhors sin. Our sins are not acceptable to God. Jesus took on the sins of the world and paid our punishment. I think too many times the world looks at God only from the side they want to see, not accepting or understanding that our behavior is contrary to what not only God wants from us, but also what he demands. Something must atone for our sins. Jesus’ death on the cross was the atonement for our sins and saves us from the eternal damnation that we all deserve. I’m sure others can say it better than I.

 

Things to consider in the Bible

 There are things about the Bible that Christian Fans just accept without real reflection, and they think it’s fine to base their faith around them. A Christian Fan is like a sports fan….that is they accept anything that favors their team….no matter if it is right or wrong, and their allegience is forever strong. This is fine for a sports team, but I think not concerning the rational for running your life.

 Let’s look at the Bible for awhile. I don’t want to turn this sports site into a Christian debate site, so I don’t think this thread will last very long. But I do think it needs to be read by anybody who is objective and fair.

 I contend that there is a God, but he is not well depicted in the Bible;e, especially the OT. I contend that he is seen as a killer, and a gross maker of mistakes in that volume…..in fact a wanton taker of life, and proveyer of intense pain and sorrow.

 I base my beliefs, not on faith, but on what I consider facts….ones can can be judged by almost anyone, except a fanatical fan. I am not trying to prevent anybody from believing in a God….something I myself do, but just not the God depicted in this over 2000 year old book.

 There is a finely written book called Drunk with Blood by Steven Wells that I will use as my guide….just to save time. I suggest anybody debating me here get a copy at Amazon, or much better yet, get an audio copy at www.audible.com. That’s what I did. You get it, with another one, just for signing up for a trial subscription….one you have a month to cancel.

 Will start this off soon. Get the audiobook so you are all ready.

 

YoakDaddy just called me a pig….indirectly, and others have called me a dick, and a troll….plus saying my wife couldn’t love me, etc. I suspect such will continue, but I don’t care. I have held off using the facts about the Bible and God depicted within, but these nice Christian fans have aggravated me to step forth.

 The format will be as follows. I will give a summary of the killing God blatantly commits in the Bible, THEN let you see the actuall words (KJV) written below, with the verse numbers, lest you think I am lying….oh, yes, I have been called a liar too. Well you judge for yourself.

 Please just judge what I say for what they are….my opinion, but I bet you will finally agree….God is a wantin killer in the Bible, and a terrible father. Ask yourself, would you do what he vis DEPICTED to do to his children. I am not saying a real God would do these things….just the God of the so-called “Word of God”…..which I say needs editing.

 If your “faith” weak, then stay away for awhile, and only read a very little at a time. All I am saying is that God is much better than the one of the Bible, and that you need not feel like you were born in sin.

Molecular Bear: Do you know more than God? If not, then leave the Godding to God.

 He has deemed that you are a fraud and a troll. Carry on troll.

Forest: Folks. Please, please don’t feed this troll!

 He’s not a seeker. He’s not an intellectual. He’s not interested in an honest dialogue about the truth.

 He’s here to mock your faith and bait you into saying something abusive so he can say, “Yeah, this is how Christians are.” It’s sad that he’s so insecure in his faith, he has to come around and mock ours.

 Just pray for him. Talking to him is non-productive.

Me: Yes, I think I am a better father than the God of the Bible, and so are you….in many, but not all places. Just follow this thread, and see.

 You are another ChristianFan, MolecularBear….will be nice to have you against me.

 See told you the verbal attacks would continue. That’s fine because then everyone can see the fruits of the beliefs of these Fans.

Molecularbear; You think you are better only because you think you know the outcome and what the outcome means. You have fallen prey to the simpleton’s folly.

 God knows all outcomes. Have fun in hell.

 

Me: Oh, now I am going to hell. This is getting better and better….just because I don’t believe in this guy’s Book of God.

 And now I am a simpleton!!! What next?

 

Forest: Folks. Please, please don’t feed this troll!

 He’s not a seeker. He’s not an intellectual. He’s not interested in an honest dialogue about the truth.

 He’s here to mock your faith and bait you into saying something abusive so he can say, “Yeah, this is how Christians are.” It’s sad that he’s so insecure in his faith, he has to come around and mock ours.  Just pray for him. Talking to him is non-productive.

Mothra Bingo. Don’t feed the troll.

Me: Gee, thanks Forest. This is a serious debate that hasn’t even started yet. Hope you take part. I want you to consider what you deem wrong….without even seeing it. But thanks for the prayers….that shows something.

Mr. Tulip: All right, I’ll give it a go. In the currently accepted form of the Bible, there are a ton of “what the heck?” stories seemingly incompatible with a loving, forgiving God. Off the top of my head, a group of kids is torn apart by a bear for making fun of Elisha’s baldness, a man offers up his daughter to be raped by strangers if they leave him alone, and the praising of babies being smashed on rocks is hoped for.

 My answer (and ONLY MINE – I claim to speak for no one, nor represent anyone’s theology) is that The Bible is a book of theology. It is NOT A RULE BOOK. It doesn’t contain the guide to living. It tells the story of God’s pursuit of His people, their deeds, and how He continually seeks them – even when (especially when) they’ve done wrong.

 It also contains a good bit of oral history. That’s shortcut for “we’ve been telling this story for centuries. It may not have actually happened this way.”

 There’s a bit in the middle where God Himself appears on Earth. He makes a point not to do it flashy. Ok, the bit where His earthly mother hasn’t had sex yet was a little cheeky, but He’s God after all. He’s born to a laborer in a crummy town that everyone made fun of. Later on, He said that all the commandments were good, but there were two really important things: 1. Love God. Love Him more than anything else. 2. Love His creation. God made everything, so yes, love everything. He said that these two points defined everything else. The Law, the Commandments, everything said by prophets, whatever, had to rest on those two statements.

 If you’re looking for rules, those are the only ones you’ll find. Everything else rests on those, and cannot conflict with those. You’re reading a book on theology, remember, so you’re going to have to do some interpretation or thinking. Just remember that if your motivation isn’t Love, then you’re in conflict with “the rules”, such as they are.

 Maybe I’m wasting my time with a troll, maybe I’m not. Personally, this gave me the opportunity to organize some thoughts and commit them to a fixed (sort of) medium. I’m grateful.

 

D.C. Pretty much.
 Maybe someday he will become a reformed troll.

 

Me: See everyone….they bowing out without me even posting anything. See what is happening. I am a troll, a dick, a liar, etc….without them even reading. Methinks they afraid. So we start soon. Tune in to see why I say God depicted as a killer in the Bible. I am not saying he is a killer, just that he is depicted that way in the BOOK. These Fans can’t deny it so will just name call, and then try to get people not to participate. Why?

 

Tech; Classic troll behavior. Post trolling. Ignore anyone who responds seriously. Claim victory because people don’t want to bother with a troll. You couldn’t prove GT’s case much better–especially given that he’s basically willing to talk with just about anyone who shows the least common courtesy.

 Since you’re a fan of science, you might want to check this out:

http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/…-also-sadists/

Me: Classic troll behavior. Post trolling. Ignore anyone who responds seriously. Claim victory because people don’t want to bother with a troll. You couldn’t prove GT’s case much better–especially given that he’s basically willing to talk with just about anyone who shows the least common courtesy.

 Since you’re a fan of science, you might want to check this out:

http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/…-also-sadists/

 

Me: INTRODUCTION: DAY 1

 Well, let’s start with the expose about God being DEPICTED as a bloodthirsty killer in the Bible. First to use his own words describing himself: First I will state what is happening in Italics, then underneath will be the actual verse cited from the King James Version. This will just be an introduction and is paraphased from Steve Wells book: Drunk with Blood….see frost post of this thread for advice concerning this resource.

 Five times in the Bible God describes himself or his actions using Drunk with Blood:

1. God first uses it to describe himself and his arrows….being Drunk with Blood. Here is the verse from the Bible….look it up to verify:

I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy. (Deuteronomy 32:42)

2.Like wise God’s sword is Drunk with Blood.

For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates. (Jerimiaah 46:10)

3. Besides God’s sword and arrows having blood, he is going to force people to eat their own flesh and get drunk with their own blood..

And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. (Isaiah 49:26)

4. After killing people, God will feed their bodies to the birds and beast, until they are drunk with blood.

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
 18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
 19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. (Ezekiel 39: 17-19)

5. A at last the Great Wxhore of Babylon (Babylonia) will be drunk with the blood of saints and martyrs:

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. (Revelation 17:6)

 Well, that is how the wonderful caring father describes himself in the word of God. Tomorrow I will start with the killings themselves. There are 158 separate listings totaling over 2.8 million people….using numbers supplied in the Bible itself.

 I don’t want to have to cite all these….but will if needed by Christian Fans.

 Copy by selecting. Then print out to verify in Bible.

 Hope this looks okay reading wise.

Much skiupped but at http://www.baylorfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274503&page=1

This one good by me: Day 2 of God’s depicted Rapacious appetite to Kill in the Bible….Genesis, Part 1

 Sam and JXL, so all this okay with you guys? Now I am beginning to see why you must believe this stuff, and your
 attitude toward anyone in opposition….just kill them, wipe them out…it’s okay, it’s back in bad times… use
 braggadocio type language as you kill….For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he
 may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their
 blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrate or And I will feed
 them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine:
 and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

 It’s okay for a God to say he is going to make people eat their own flesh, or that his sword be satiate with blood?

 I ask, “Why did God favor one miserable group of people over another?” Why did he choose the future Jews over
 everybody else with Abraham, and hate everyone else to the point of killing them wholesale? This whole Bible thing
 is a Hollywood type good/guy bad guy movie….just to attract people’s interest.Don’t you guys in your adult ages see this is all a myth….agin to Greek myths, Roman myths, Indian myths, AWrab myths, Mormon myths….all of which you don’t believe in….why? I bet you would criticist those….so why criticize anyone doing so with the Bible? I did that myself for all my life, but not now….after seeing all the vitriol supplied by Christian fans. The only one with any real credence is Pale Rider….a guy who actually lives the way he talks. Contrast him to someone like Bug, or Forest, or Mothra, or D.C. who say you had better be a Christian or else.

 Btw, Jesus invented later as a result of having to rationalize his woeful death on the cross….the least respected way to die reserved for lowly criminals….not a conquering messiah But this rendition much better than the killer in the OT.

 Well, let’s get on to the first mass murder “depicted” in the book of Genesis. Again this is a summary of what is said in the book, Drunk With Blood by Steven Wells.

 Be back soon to continue:

Is God Great? A debate between Hitchins and Lennox

I have heard of Hitchens, but not Lennox. I find that I agree much more with Hitchens, but also with Lennox at times.  I was amazed to find also that Hitchens and I have come to the same conclusions on many things….this solely through my study of this religion thing on my own the last three years. But I believe in God and he doesn’t. Lennox has fallen for the Jesus line of thinking, and assumes the Bible to be true, so I disagree with that.

Still this debate is a good exercise for any Christian….especially Fans…as well as nonbelievers…..and also for people who just want to learn.

It is located on youtube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH68Y5MUGfo

What I recommend a person does is download the video file, convert it to mp3, then burn it to a cd to listen to. It is over 90 minutes long so you must have a lot of time…..but well worth it. I listened to it before going to bed….as I do with all my religion tapes, whether Christian or not. Just don’t listen in bed if you have a Christian fan as a wife or husband.

Very, very few people have read the Bible….but instead just parts recommended by pastors or study guides making a particular point. To read this book is to see just how bad it is….with it’s downright cruelty, intolerance, contradictions, sex, misogyny, false prophecy, etc.

 Now please don’t write back that none of this is true….unless you actually try to read Genesis, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.

 New Testament not so bad, but the OT is just insufferable. Go ahead, just read it right through.

Religion is needed by the average guy….that I must admit. Most people will become hostile if you say anything about their book…..but hardly any of these have read the thing.

Something that was revealing to me was a book by a pastor I read last year. He admitted that all the issues I stated above are known and discussed during seminary….yet all is forgotten or buried once seminary is over. Thus pastors know the doubts you might have, yet never entertain them during their tenures.

I ask you: Why did God harden the heart of Pharoah time after time….just to make it harder for the Jews to leave. Such led to death and suffering….all not needed unless God hardened his heart. Why all this Hollywood like drama. Read about Lot….a guy whose house was surrounded by people from Sodom who wanted to have sex with a angels who was visiting him. He offered his virgin daughters to them instead, WHY? these was angels….who could surely protect themselves. Makes no sense. God said this man was the only good person in all of Sodom and Gormorah….no good kids or babies….EVERYbody bad and needing smiting? So he destroyed everyone in those two cities….telling Lot and family not to look back as it exploded, burned, and was inundated with fire from above….why? Well, Lot’s un-named wife glances back, and wow, God turns her to salt. Why? Maybe it’s because there are many, many salt and mineral formations that can look human along the Dead Sea. What a nice way to explain them….Lot’s wife.

 Go ahead, read the Bible to see what I mean. God is depicted as a killer.

People merely ignore….or even justify….this depiction of God. I can’t.

 

BS about prophets

Mohammedan another fake, phony, fraud….like Joseph Smith, Buddhah, Jesus, David Koresh, Mary Baker Eddy, etc. Jesus was made out to be a phony concept. He, himself, a great man and teacher, but born from a virgin, then resurrected…. a pure fabrication by a society that wanted him to be deified. Mohammedan a guy who united the Arabs by eliminating their 360 Gods….one God for all the tribes….boom they become stronger and great. All this stuff is pure bunk, and would never catch on if presented today. But people need to believe in something, so it continues. Now you have Moslems using Islam as an excuse to unite them against an enemy….the West. Of course the Christians are now riled up against them.

This is my opinion. Believe me or not.

What’s Intelligent Design?

t’s an attempt on the part of Christian fans to appear modern and hip. It’s BS science…IMO….though logical to an extent. But so was Aristotle when he said a weight of double size will drop at twice the speed as the original…..logical, but untrue….though it took Galeleo to prove him wrong….like 2000 years aftere he said it. This is similar, IMO, to the agruments for the innerency of the Bible….pure BS faith stuff….like faith in Aristotle.

Salvation from what?

Forest Buella: Really……there is only one who can make that call, it’s not INB. A Christian is simply a believer, who has put their full faith in Christ completed work of salvation. That doesn’t make them perfect, or even close to perfect. As kind hearted as Pale is, he doesn’t qualify on his own either, but his faith in his Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, is his salvation. His Lord and his God.

INB reply: Salvation from what, Forest. What did you do so wrong where God had to have his own son killed….in a miserable fashion. I don’t understand the sacrifice….and I bet you can’t explain it either….yet you just accept that you are born an evil person that deserves nothing. I doubt if God is going to send me to a fire for eternity with all the good I have done in my life….and the same with most people….if there actually is a hell.

What’s a Christian Fan?

An apologist named Mothra asked me what a Christian Fan was. Here is what I wrote:

A fan of any team, Mothra, will over look anything illegal the team does during a game….just plain ignore it….like we Baylor fans during a basketball game. That’s what a Christian fan does when discussing some Christian issues. It’s not a dig on Christians by me….nor is anything I say a dig….though you might think it is. It’s just the plain truth.

 I admit, I used to be a “fan” too….but no more. The Bible is a decrepit book, and the Jesus story just an extended invention by man….one changing as time goes on. But people need this fake, phony, belief to survive during these times.

 Feeling that you were born bad, and needing God to grant everything to you is what is wrong. It makes people be controlled and manipulated by priests, and pastors, and supported to keep their places (Pale Rider excluded….this guy a real “Christian”….a guy who believes what he says….though uninformed). Then there are people like you, who react with hatred and vile to hear thge truth….just like the booing when a call goes against a fan at a game. It’s really very interesting to see, and quit disgusting. I thought Jesus said turn the other cheek, and to pray for the “lost”. Not for a fan, Mothra.

Is homosexuality immoral?

IMO, homosexuality was thought to be a 1. disease, or 2. chosen moral defect during time Bible was written. Thus it might be caught like a virus, and be spread by practicing it. Such would be detrimental to the society back then….so it was declared a sin to wipe it out. Now we realize that it’s not a choice, nor is it catching, so like with slavery or diet laws, the Bible declamation of it being a sin doesn’t apply anymore.

 I am very turned off by homosexual practices, but homosexuals probably feel the same about straight stuff. The fact though now is that homosexual marriage is a practice that will not be stopped because such behavior is not detrimental to society, and these people deserve rights like anyone else….especially concerning inheritance and monetary benefits.

So religious condemnation will have to change, and it will….as it always has, as society favors it. This doesn’t have a thing to do with any Gods…..except those in one’s own mind.

 

Who created evil…God?

Man is basically confined to a competition for things that bring pleasure, satisfaction, goods and services, etc. This makes him covet things in his environment. To make him share, and avoid hurting others man has come up with a system of keeping everyone cooperating. Some people call this “religion”. Thus some things that hurt others are called evil, and things that don’t are called “from God”.

 That in my opinion is where evil came from….from things that hurt others…..which can change BTW….like slavery, working on the Sabbath, and soon, homosexuality.

 Don’t even worry about any of this stuff….just always consider how what you do affects others….then just do what is “right’ for them AND you…..many times a balance.